“This is not a weight loss journey, it’s a health gain journey.” — Jimmy Moore, chief goal post mover
Too bad if you don’t like it. People keep sending me stuff, and it’s jaw dropping. As I’ve said before, if Jimmy was just Joe Citizen I wouldn’t give a hoot, would feel sympathy for him, and wish him well. But I can’t, now, and if it sounds crass not to wish the guy well, consider that his well being comes via dispensing nonsense to others that clearly is not effective.
Again, allow me to draw a distinction. There are proper, sane, reasonable ways to do ketogenic diets. What Jimmy promotes is nonsense and in my opinion, profoundly unhealthful. I think there ought to be someone speaking out and assembling some posts on it. No, this is not going to be like you-know-who, and her 500 posts or however many it is on Gary Taubes.
So I did a barrage of Facebook posts. the links to my posts are below, and the links to Jimmy’s are in each of my posts.
Post #1:
Jimmy Moore’s Livin’ La Vida Low-Carb
I’m traveling right now and staying in hotels where they have a good mix of a hot bar and the crappy carbage-filled continental breakfast options. This morning I filled my plate with eggs, cheese, and sausage with a glass of water. On the way to my seat, I saw another hotel guest was eating a bowl of oatmeal with a glass of orange juice. I couldn’t help but start laughing at the thought we both think our own plate is the “healthy” option and the other plate will eventually lead to a disease like Type 2 diabetes, heart disease, or worse.
This is the nutritional divide we currently face with a lot of gray area in between depending on insulin sensitivity vs. insulin resistance, some genetics, and the impact foods have on key blood markers like inflammation, insulin, and more. That guy believes how he is eating will keep his health in line. As do I with my meals. It’s the perfect picture of where we are in this discussion about what a healthy diet is and just how far apart people’s perception of that really is.
Me: The mind just boggles. Oatmeal and OJ, for Chist’s sake. It’s not a plate of Little Debbie Snack Cakes.
Post #2:
Jimmy Moore’s Livin’ La Vida Low-Carb
So I asked my publisher Victory Belt to create a caricature of me to distinguish my contributions to THE KETO CURE book I’m writing with Dr. Adam Nally coming September 26, 2017 and THIS is what they came up with. It’s a great likeness, but turned out looking more like a portrait than a fun character with personality. They’re gonna spruce mini-Jimmy up a bit, but not a shabby first stab at it. What do you think? Great dartboard material right? ? ?
Me: What’s wrong, Jimmy, don’t want a current full body shot on the “Keto ‘Cure'”–or an after the original before, alongside a current after, which would be after the last after the original before?
Suggested subtitle for the “Cure” book:
–“The secret to becoming obese and restoring your #health“
It would be so LOL, if it wasn’t so pathetic.
#lowcarb #keto #nonsense #cico #caloriescount
Post #3:
Jimmy Moore’s Livin’ La Vida Low-Carb
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Me: The perfect thing to constantly feed and nourish your dysfunctional food and face stuffing gluttony.
I recommend at least a 1/4 inch of soft butter spread on it, too (call it frosting), or, in the words of that super lean guru Sally Fallon, “think ‘enough to make teeth marks.'”
And hey, you could also dip them in heavy cream for an even bigger #fatbomb.
#keto #gluttony #eatingdisorder
Post #4:
Jimmy Moore’s Livin’ La Vida Low-Carb
Go get your copy of the latest cookbook from the #keto Energizer Bunny herself Maria Maria Wojcik Emmerich called KETO COMFORT FOODS available wherever books are sold TODAY! I love Maria’s recipe style (makes me wanna eat the front cover off!) and now she’s got a whole book full of delicious and nutritious meals that bring love and comfort into your #lowcarb #highfat #ketogenic lifestyle! THANK YOU Maria for being a master at what you do. Proud of you!
Me: “Stuff Your Fat Face 24/7 On Foods You Love, Without Guilt” would be a more honest title.
“Comfort” indeed. Cause that’s what’s important when you’re fat from eating too much, too often. You need to feel comfortable, and the way to do that is eat more magic foods more often.
#keto #ketogenic #scam #ketoscam #gluttony #eatingdisorder
Post #5:
Jimmy Moore’s Livin’ La Vida Low-Carb
I’m constantly having discussions with people about what #healthy #nutrition is all about. One lady told me her #diet was really good and I asked her what that means. She said she eats at Subway instead of McDonald’s and so I asked her what she eats there. She asked me if what she shared about her Subway meal is bad and I explained how the grains, sugar, and lack of fat is why it’s less than optimal. She picked up a Kindle ebook copy of my book #KetoClarity and it’s opening her eyes to a whole new paradigm. Changing lives one person at a time. #lowcarb #highfat #ketogenic #keto
Me: “lack of fat”
Oh LOL. Yea, god forbid that she doesn’t turn her 400 calorie sandwich into a 1,200 calorie fat bomb.
Jimmy Moore is literally a menace to society in every conceivable way.
#keto #fatbomb #huckster #fail #dietfail
Well, that should about do it for slamming the ever more popular misapplied, misunderstood, wrong way to employ ketosis, and its opportunistic hucksters, for one day.
#jimmymoore #keto #eatingdisorder #caloriescount #micronutritioncounts
Here’s my previous two recent posts on the diet menace.
I recently listened to Fasting Talk, Jimmy Moore’s podcast. In the last episode he had Jason Fung as guest (he comes on once a month I think), and Jason gave his view on obesity. He said among other things: “whole grains is not going to harm you”. Jimmy should listen to that, get a more a balanced view.
Jimmy also tried to get Fung to say something bad about fruit. Jason took it as far as saying that excessive amounts of fruits isn’t optimal if you have severe diabetes.
Hard to listen to anyone anymore. I know of no one, except you that even attempt to say anything negative about him…its like they are scared of him or his audience/influence. There is no integrity. Rob Wolf, Mark S, and others give him basically a free pass.
He’s an anecdote at this point. He should start working at fairs, selling his books, and carpet sweepers to make a living. Sideshow Jimmy Terwilliger.
Jimmy Moore needs to have his brain scanned for injury in the hypothalamus. Obese people have this and it explains their obesity, because the injured part controls appetite and energy expenditure.
Obesity is associated with hypothalamic injury in rodents and humans
jci.org/articles/view/59660
Rodents get this injury on a high fat diet, and Jimmy Moore eats a high fat diet. These diets are well known to cause oxidative stress, which would explain the injury. Satiety neurons in the hypothalamus are very sensitive to oxidative stress, as are beta cells in the pancreas, which is why high fat diets are used to study both obesity and diabetes.
However, ketogenic diets prevent oxidative stress.
Suppression of Oxidative Stress by β-Hydroxybutyrate, an Endogenous Histone Deacetylase Inhibitor
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3735349/
What this means is that Jimmy Moore is treading a fine line between the oxidative stress of a high fat diet and its prevention by beta-hydroxybutyrate. It looks like the oxidative stress is winning. It might do so if the iron-manganese ratio in his diet is very high. Beta-hydroxybutyrate upregulates the transcription factor FOXO3A, which raises manganese-SOD and lowers free iron.
BOHB -> FOXO3A -> MnSOD
BOHB -> FOXO3A -> downregulation of oncogene c-Myc -> lower free iron
It was reported recently that obese people have iron overload in the brain, including the hypothalamus.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25125507
No Jane, Jimmy Moore needs to have his brain scanned for checking whether he still possess some sort of moral integrity and decency. As to his hypothalamus, it was cannibalized a long time ago :D
The ketosis ate my brainzzzz.
“Jimmy Moore needs to have his brain scanned for injury in the hypothalamus.”
LOL, you’re goddamned right.
How is that fucking charlatan still working his gimmick? It’s crazy. Just crazy.
How?
A suckered born every minute.
I bought keto clarity……but I did not buy the message and now I know why.
Regarding post #3: keto is becoming more and more processed junk, thinking if there’s just lots of fats it is good for you. The same sad mistake as during the low fat craze – low fat cookies, zero fat jelly beans – so you can eat as much as you want.
yep. Diets sell products. Atkins meals, Zone bars, keto cookies. “paleo chips” (yuk)
If you are doing “sane” bodybuilder style low carb (counting calories) to trim some weight with whole foods, 30 grams of carbs can get you a lot of green leafy vegetables and leave room for condiments. carb re-feeds with good things like taters and rice are beneficial too.
Diabetic candies make me cringe when I see them at the pharmacy.
This is always what happens, though. People don’t really want to give up the foods/things/habits that are bad for them. I sympathize, and think it’s ok to market candies that a diabetic or keto dieter can eat, but the underlying habit of downing a whole bag of M&Ms is what needs to change.
I’ve become far less strict with my own diet. It’s low in meat but not at all vegetarian. I’ve begun eating small amounts of grain foods again and I’m ok with it. I could go the super disciplined bikini competition route and eat my own weight in grams of protein with some broccoli now and then but that’s no fun.
There’s room for A cookie. Not all the cookies. I don’t have any underlying disease like diabetes to worry about, I just struggle with staying lean, so I have to either 1) accept that I will live on egg whites and chicken breast forever, or 2) be a little squooshy in the backside but enjoy my food in sane portions.
Door #2, please. But I’m a poor Diet Product Customer, I won’t spend money on the —–ified junk of the week.
But if a diabetic or keto dieter wants a candy bar or a cupcake. I’m glad their are options for them. Keeps it sane, right? As long as it’s a serving. Not the whole recipe.
I’d be sympathetic if he wasn’t trying to cash in on it all.
How long has he been blogging? I think I must have read his blog over a decade, 13, 15 years? ago when i first thought I’d try HFLC. Seemed like sound advice and a success story for sure, but he was never really thin, just not obese. Even back then you could see his rebounds ebbing and flowing.
So much more than calories matter. Calories matter, certainly, but there’s always more to the story. I love those stories where people discover tumors on the hypothalamus or other hormone regulating glands, have them removed, and suddenly they develop all the missing secondary sex characteristics or lose a ton of weight or are able to do any number of things they previously could not.
To think it’s as simple as eating all fat, all the time, is ridiculous. i tried it. I got fatter. Moderate calorie restriction is easy with keto or a high protein diet, or even with some hard exercise a few times a week. Fasting is not for me but I understand it’s merits, does Jimmy recognize it’s drawbacks?
“Moderate calorie restriction is easy with keto or a high protein diet,”
Or even both.
Bingo.
Brain it.
I make the distinction only because keto isn’t really supposed to be high protein according to experts. Gluconeogenesis and all that. Whatever, I’m over it, got too stressful.
If you want to gain body fat, eat fat + carbs.
Muscle? Protein + carbs + weight training
Lose fat? Protein + veggies + moderate fat + weight training or other exercise
You can rotate between two of these scenarios easily and shred fat and build muscle. Guess which one is not an option?
Oh and of course at a caloric surplus! But eating net high protein makes that caloric surplus tough to manage.
This was a very fun post to make, wasn’t it?
As I read on and on, all I could think of was how much fun this post is. LOL@that fuck Jimmy Moore.
LOL. A friend messaged shortly after I published it.
“Well, that one wrote itself.”
I thought to myself, what causes someone to get so set in his beliefs so that nothing can change their opinion, not even being able to entertain the idea that carbs can be good for you, or even that they could be neutral to health? I mean, we’re not talking about religion, or politics here. It’s not like God himself told us to avoid carbs. (On the contrary, Jesus was giving bread both to the general public and his disciples, but that is a side point). I had my time on low carb, but moved on. Ideas are evolving, changing. Why be stuck in the past, why not move on and try new things, you just might learn something.
I did find this comment by Jaminet:
“Paul Jaminet May 22, 2015 at 7:58 am
Please, folks – don’t call names or make ad hominem attacks on Jimmy. He faces an extraordinarily difficult problem: to accept carbs, he not only has to give up long-held beliefs, but he also may lose his livelihood, and the persona of “lowcarbman” that has become his personal identity. This must be like being on Calvary for him, a sort of death. Now I think he’s a talented guy and would do well after being “born again,” but it probably doesn’t look that way from where he stands. In order to make that leap you need faith and a willingness to die for truth. Not many could do it. I hope Jimmy can.
Have some sympathy for the man, and be courteous”
Good advice, have sympathy and show courtesy. Avoid ad hominem.
But now to the point? Is it that simple, fear of losing your “webpire” and low carb identity? Not for us to judge of course, I’m just trying to learn something. Of course, I do see that if you’ve written a book on the benefits of the ketogenic diet, it would be hard to retract and admit it causes problems. But couldn’t it be done easier, just evolve and move on? Low carb could easily be 100 g of starch. Keto a short time intervention, Atkins style. Add fasting to that, and you have one more tool.
I like the LLVLC podcast when there’s a decent guest. If he brought in a bigger variety of guests, I certainly would listen more often. And I would be more inclined to buy some products he advertises.
As I see it, the basic problem is that the real cause of obesity is being swept under the carpet. Even Stephan Guyenet, who is an author on the hypothalamic injury paper, never talks about it.
OF COURSE if obese people have hypothalamic injury it’s likely to be the cause of their obesity. OF COURSE the injury is likely to be due to oxidative stress. OF COURSE high fat diets cause oxidative stress. OF COURSE the most important antioxidant enzyme is MnSOD, and OF COURSE the western diet is very low in manganese. What more does Stephan want?
If an obesity expert like Stephan, who actually did some of the work on hypothalamic injury, does not talk about it as the cause of obesity, nobody else can either. Least of all Jimmy Moore.
Jane,
That really was a fascinating find. Is the injury permanent, or could it be reversed?
Another question: what do you see as a “high fat diet”? I’m usually close to Perfect Health Diet macros, 50-60% fat. But far from ketogenic. Would that be a concern, could it cause that kind of oxidative stress?
Does having too much body fat cause oxidative stress and hypothalamic injury? Perhaps you create a positive feedback loop: eat a bad diet which induces stress and makes you fat, which then further amplifies the effect of bad diet, leading to death spiral (so to speak).
Hi Robert
In rodents, yes it can be reversed, by returning them to chow from the high fat diet. They get thin again and the hypothalamic inflammation goes away. Whether this is true in humans is not yet known. The field is evolving very fast. Here’s what some colleagues of Stephan’s wrote in 2015.
Hypothalamic pathology in humans?
Although the extent to which obesity and/or HFD [high fat diet] feeding impacts hypothalamic structure and function in humans remains uncertain, translational insights using brain imaging are beginning to support this type of neuropathologic model. A retrospective analysis of MRIs from 34 subjects (BMI range: 17.7–44.1 kg/m2) revealed evidence of gliosis [= inflammation] in the mediobasal hypothalamus that correlated with BMI (18••), and recently the findings were replicated in a prospective cohort showing an additional link between gliosis and insulin resistance (Ellen Schur, personal communication). A separate MRI study in 44 overweight/obese subjects reported an inverse correlation between systemic inflammation (measured as serum fibrinogen) and the integrity of brain structures involved in food reward and feeding behavior (73). Most recently, diffusion tensor imaging (DTI) was used to screen for hypothalamic damage in 44 obese patients and controls (74••). In the obese cohort, lower axon diffusivity (i.e. increased damage) was correlated with increased BMI and impaired cognitive performance. Finally, a few studies of structural alterations in the brains of obese subjects have shown reduced connectivity through the corpus callosum (75, 76), reduced hypothalamic volume in obese females with insulin resistance (77), and greater connectivity between the hypothalamus and reward-related brain areas than homeostatic areas (78•). Together, these data support the hypothesis that humans develop hypothalamic pathology akin to that of rodents with gliosis and injury potentially promoting weight gain, insulin resistance, and cognitive impairment.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4600090/
So the situation is the same in rodents and humans, which means reversal should be possible.
You asked whether your diet is too high in fat. Difficult to say because it depends on what else you eat. If you eat a lot of whole grains and legumes, which are very high in manganese, you can get away with more fat. But if you eat a lot of meat as well as a lot of fat, there could be trouble because meat has a very high iron-manganese ratio. Animal foods in general have very little manganese.
Nice, Jane.
And we’re right back to logical food pairings, a prominent practice of Med and Blue Zones folk.
Thank you Jane for clarifying! And I’m also grateful that someone keeps up with this advanced stuff. It just goes to show the obesity issue is much more complex than many wants to admit (it’s the carbs, it’s all calories, it’s watching too much TV, etc)
I do try to increase whole grains and legumes. But I also try to up protein, it leads to more meat eating. But I’m doing more chicken, not so much red meat. Also tuna, and milk curds. Less iron I think. And I live in Europe (not UK), so no iron added to flours.
One of my protein bomb meals. Can of tuna, water packed, drained. 1 1/2 cup LF cottage cheese, stirred up together. Add black pepper.
Surprisingly tasty, over 70g protein.
Reminds me of when you posted that meticulously constructed fat-bread recipe after like 3 iterations because PROPER FAT RATIO ZOMG
Ha. Evolution.
Haha, I recently came across that post too. And I’ve been there myself. It feels so much better to just get a slice of whole grain sourdough bread instead.
Like this?
Oh yeah ma, that’s the real deal! ?
Oops, sorry, not ma, but man ?
Speaking of butter, have you read this post by Stephen Guyenet?
stephanguyenet.com/two-things-ive-changed-my-mind-about-part-i-butter/#comment-866
itsthewooo.blogspot.com.au/2015/06/cheating-lying-or-denial-definitely-not.html?m=1
The only problem with Woo’s analysis is she doesn’t address the real issue. Jimmy eats too much too often, and that’s why he packs on pounds.
There’s a pattern I see with Jimmy and those experts and followers he has:
1. He’s painted himself into a corner where he needs to double down on his beliefs.
2. He’s surrounded by ostensibly smart people, but his doubling down in 1 above is throwing them off. Jason Fung is not wed to keto for example but humours him, and Eric Westman thinks calorie consumption does matter at some point, to name a couple examples.
3. Jimmy and his followers are starting to sound like they’re playing the victim.
I left a page on FB Jimmy is on. It was a fasting page for Dr. Fung, but as much as I tried to steer the diet part of the conversation to not necessarily ketogenic, I was getting pushback. I see it in comments and questions (and oddly enough, in the user names of the emails Jimmy reads in the podcasts, such as letters from KetoAssBlaster and FatBombastic, which may or may not be made up).
I will stay low carb for a while, as I have a lot of weight to lose, and hell, may even go keto once in a while, but I don’t see myself long term sticking to keto. There’s a inflexibility to the idea, and movement it has begun, that is off-putting, in addition to the comfort of victimhood it provides.
Richard, I don’t always agree with your beliefs (diet, politics, or life in genera), but do enjoy the fact you make me think. I even think I identify more as a Classic Liberal (from watching a video in an earlier post you made), rather than a libertarian or modern day left. And of course, I’ll keep coming here for the latest and greatest in health in general, both good and bad, knowing science is always changing.
Richard,
Talking of Wooo, she has some interesting figures on the amount of manganese in animal-food diets.
itsthewooo.blogspot.co.uk/2017/04/all-meat-diet-dumbest-and-unhealthiest.html
She has calculated that if she were eating an all-meat diet, she’d be getting only 0.1-0.2 mg/day of manganese. The RDA in the US is 2 mg, which is 10-20 times higher!
That’s shocking enough, but it gets worse. The RDA is nothing more than the average intake. According to the Linus Pauling Institute, the experts decided on the basis of no evidence whatsoever that the average intake was enough. So the RDA and the average intake are both 2 mg.
Compare this with the amount of manganese in the Ma Pi diet, a whole-grain vegan diet which apparently cures diabetes.
Ma-Pi 2 macrobiotic diet and type 2 diabetes mellitus: pooled analysis of short-term intervention studies.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24532293
This diet has 16 mg/day of manganese. If Wooo were eating this diet she’d be getting well over 100 times more manganese than she would on an all-meat diet!
What this means is that if Jimmy Moore lives on fat and meat with a few veggies as he apparently does, he is probably getting 10 or more times less manganese than he needs.
His keto expert friends do not appear to have any idea about manganese. Dr Adam Nally’s KetoEssential supplement has only 1 mg. Here it is with a pic of a very unhealthy looking Nally.
adamnally.clickfunnels.com/sales-page9199005
Jane,
You bring out some very interesting points regarding manganese. I honestly had never heard of it before (except when I skimmed through the posts about iron here at FTA), but now I’m reading away. It’s really an important mineral for mitochondria it seems.
We’ve had a day off today and made one enormous pot of beans / beets / carrots soup, and now a huge pot of bean and beef chili is cooking away. This evening we’ll have homemade wholemeal spelt pizza. All inspired by your advice earlier.
Do you have some tips for reading further about the role of manganese? Also, how would you describe a healthy diet in a simple way? I personally have two things I’m not willing to give up at the moment, high protein and 1-2 glasses of wine or craft beer a day. But I’m trying to optimize it working around this.
Jane,
Another question: would it be a good idea to look for Mn supplements?
Ha, Jane.
As a matter of fact, I had seen that. For some reason recently I was curious what she’s been up to and meandered through some posts.
Least she keeps the stuff halfway sane.
Jane
I bet the Ma Pi diet also has substantial contributions from chromium and other trace minerals.
I would not be so anxious to conclude it’s the manganese that is so wonderful .
In the mid 1980’s I pioneered experiments (animal) using MnCL as a MRI contrast agent (similar to Gadiolinium) Manganese can be extremely toxic and high levels are detectable on MRI. current neuroscientist do have a technique MEMRI or Manganese enhanced MRI.
Confession/Disclosure: Like Mark Sisson I use liquid Trace Elements in my morning coffee. PLease consider high dose Mn supplements very carefully.
What trace elements product, Hap.
Such mild supplementation has always made some sense to me. I used Dr Gunry’s “Vital Reds” and “Primal Plants” most mornings, just mixed in water, one scoop each. Crazy lists of exotic stuff…but low dose.
Liquimins Concentrace….this stuff.
amazon.com/Trace-Minerals-Research-Concentrace-Mineral/dp/B000AMUWLK/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2_a_it?ie=UTF8&#…
Beats me if it’s the best or not…….just made an executive decision to go with it.
In January 2004, Jimmy Moore made a decision to get rid of the weight that was literally killing him. At 32 years of age and 410 pounds, the time had come for a radical change of lifestyle. A year later, he had shed 180 pounds, shrunk his waist by 20 inches, and dropped his shirt size from 5XL to XL. After his dramatic weight loss, Jimmy was inundated with requests from friends, neighbors and complete strangers seeking information and help. Jimmy is dedicated to helping as many people as possible find the information they need to make the kind of lifestyle change he has made. To that end, he has started a blog and a number of web-sites to get out the message of lifestyle change and healthy living.
Robert, the only tip I have on reading about manganese is not to give up when you come across the papers that claim it’s toxic. It is actually one of the least toxic metals. I don’t know for sure what’s going on but I suspect Big Pharma and Wall Street are involved. I do know that when I tried to tell my Oxford college about manganese, my fellowship was terminated with no explanation.
Delighted to hear you’re getting into high-Mn goodies. I think this is a better idea than Mn supplements, partly because Mn is very easily excreted so it might just come out the other end, and partly because Mn needs all kinds of other things to work properly, things the plant provides because it needs them too for its own Mn to work properly.
How would I describe a healthy diet? A Hunza diet, which is what I’ve been eating for the past 30 years. It’s like the Ma Pi diet with dairy products and a little meat.
Thank you Jane, and I’m sorry to hear about your fellowship. Academia seems to be a very corrupt place. And yes, whole foods is always the best way.
I’m reading that manganese helps to keep blood sugars in check. Recently Per Wikholm’s old friend and co-author came out with a book about beans and resistant starch in Sweden. He wrote it with a guy who suffers from T1D. The guy simply started eating 1/2 cup of beans with every meal, and this caused ridiculously stable blood sugars, which he didn’t have even on low carb. He could massively lover his insulin doses. His girlfriend tried the same and lost 40 kg. They acknowledge that resistant starch is part of the explanation, but the effect on blood sugars was so profound, that they think it can’t be just the resistant starch, there must be some unknown factor.
Well, what if that unknown factor is manganese, or at least part of it? He was low carb so could have been deficient, and then consistently eating beans would have restored levels. What do you think?
Hap, if you want to say manganese can be ‘extremely toxic’ you have to have a mechanism. Iron is toxic because of the Fenton reaction. Manganese does not do Fenton chemistry.
Battles With Iron: Manganese in Oxidative Stress Protection (2012)
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22247543
The redox-active metal manganese plays a key role in cellular adaptation to oxidative stress. As a cofactor for manganese superoxide dismutase [MnSOD] or through formation of non-proteinaceous manganese antioxidants, this metal can combat oxidative damage without deleterious side effects of Fenton chemistry. In either case, the antioxidant properties of manganese are vulnerable to iron. …
This is why the iron-manganese ratio is so important.
Jane
In the early 80’s I headed up experiements at U Penn performing NMR relaxometry and imaging on rhodents given MnCL2 parenterally as well as oral. This was before chelates, oxo’s, nanoparticles and other Mn formulations.
In fact I was the first to suggest that Mn would work quite well for liver imaging and that systemic toxicity reduced by oral administration, allowing most Mn to be captured on first pass through the portal system.
The toxicity of Manganese is not my specialty, … However, it is toxic to both neurons and myocytes, and the rats tolerated it very poorly. It competes for Ca receptors and interferes with calcium channels. It interferes with the dopamine system producing a Parkinsonian syndrome in humans.
Mn has pretty good imaging properties but I would not recommend supplementation. Even the Pauling Institute appears cautious and they acknowledge the good properties in metallo enzymes etc.
I would agree with Richard that trace element supplementation should be low dose…….
Perhaps we should stop flourinating water?
Regarding British Life Sciences. British scientific endeavor has been world class for over 100 years, maybe 200 or more…particularly through the industrial revolution all the way through WWII.
However, the Socialists retained a foothold early in the 20th century and finally wielded some real power through the war and afterward, and ultimately establishing NHS, MRC, and the entire medical bureaucracy.
the non governmental tinkering that established UK as the scientific juggernaut of the 19th and some of the 20th century went out the window with the Labor assault on British government. Perhaps you would wish to read some accounting of this in Hayek Road to Serfdom and the commentary notes, which are extensive.
Robert, very interesting story. Wow, that’s type ONE diabetes.
Yes I do think manganese from the beans could have had something to do with it. And it isn’t impossible that short-chain fatty acids from the resistant starch could have helped Mn absorption as they do Mg absorption.
A few years ago it was reported that diabetes in mice caused by a high fat diet could be prevented by manganese.
Manganese Supplementation Protects Against Diet-Induced Diabetes in Wild Type Mice by Enhancing Insulin Secretion (2013)
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23372018
Mitochondrial dysfunction is both a contributing mechanism and complication of diabetes, and oxidative stress contributes to that dysfunction. Mitochondrial manganese-superoxide dismutase (MnSOD) is a metalloenzyme that provides antioxidant protection. …. mice given supplemental manganese exhibited a 73% increase in hepatic MnSOD activity and increased metallation of MnSOD. …. The manganese-treated group fed high fat had improved glucose tolerance (24% decrease in fasting glucose and 41% decrease in area under the glucose curve), comparable with mice on normal chow and increased serum insulin levels. Isolated islets from the manganese-treated group exhibited improved insulin secretion, decreased lipid peroxidation, and improved mitochondrial function. ….
Jane, this is really interesting stuff.
I’m reading the book now. The T1D guy was on 100 units of insulin a day doing low carb. After adding the beans to each meal he’s down to 20 units a day (the authors comments that this is counterintuitive, adding carbs gives less insulin). Some days he can go completely without “food insulin”, only taking the baseline insulin. He also lost lots of weight.
His girlfriend (severely obese, insulin resistant, but not diabetic) weighed 120 kg, but lost 20 with low carb and working out, then plateaued. When her boyfriend started adding beans, she did too. The result: she lost another 40 kg, now down to 60 kg. Lost half her bodyweight.
Since the guy is T1D, he has a continuous blood glucose meter, and can track his blood sugar always, and that of his girlfriend. The charts are quite crazy, especially for her. She downs four sandwiches with extreme spikes, then the exact same thing with added beans and no rise in blood sugars!
Your theory of Mn and resistant starch interacting seems valid. The authors themselves speculate there must be something else in addition to the RS producing such results. I’m thinking too that just adding a TBS Potato starch to your meals wouldn’t give that much result. Maybe I’m wrong, maybe Richard or someone else following all the experiments with PS a couple of years ago saw people getting even that crazy results, but I doubt it. Is it the Mn, or is it some other whole food aspect at play? Difficult to say.
@Robert
Could you provide the name of the book?
Charles,
Unfortunately it’s a Swedish book, “Låt bönor förändra ditt liv”, written by Lars-Erik Litsfeldt and Patrik Olsson.
The meaning of the title is “Let beans change your life”
Craig, you asked whether being fat could cause oxidative stress and hypothalamic injury in a positive feedback loop. Yes I do think there is a feedback loop.
Obesity is increasingly considered to be a brain disease. We now know that obese people have iron overload in their brains, which would explain both the hypothalamic injury and the cognitive problems that make obese people see nutrient free junk as desirable. So the loop goes
Junk food -> brain injury -> inability to stop eating + dislike of exercise + desire for junk food
The latest keto madness. Apparently too much broccoli caused this guy to drop out of ketosis. Dietdoctor used to be good stuff, but now slowly moving towards more and more keto craziness.
Why you’re not in ketosis
I was cringing when I read his meals. I’d be starving all the time, and it didn’t even sound like it would taste good. It’s sad that real food has been vilified. We ate a big pot of soup tonight made from homemade vegetable stock, a chicken breast, carrots, celery, onion, rice and some herbs. It was amazing, and a far cry from a list of 5 disparate things to eat for the sake of a crazy diet.
I did faileo for a long while and I spouted a lot of the stupid Broscience I read. I give people some slack because I’ve been there thinking I was right and really my diet was terrible.
Ketosis was never something I’ve ever tried to achieve. I personally don’t function worth a damn on low carb. I can do it for a meal or maybe two, but I literally hated everything around me when I was ultra low carb. I was pissed at everything all the time for no reason. It still happens sometimes when I fast, so I save that for a day when I’m alone and away from the fam.
Robert, when I said ‘Yes I do think Mn could have had something to do with it’, what I really meant was ‘I am 99% certain it was the Mn’. I’m a scientist you know and I have to be very cautious.
The western diet looks almost as if it was designed to be Mn deficient. Lots of animal foods which have hardly any and can be very high in iron; lots of saturated fat which inhibits Mn absorption and increases iron absorption
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11697763
and lots of refined carbs whose Mn has been removed and replaced with … iron.
The importance of Mn in cell biology can hardly be overstated. MnSOD actually prevents aging.
Transcriptional profiling of MnSOD-mediated lifespan extension in Drosophila reveals a species-general network of aging and metabolic genes (2007)
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18067683
…. The data suggest that MnSOD up-regulation and a retrograde signal of reactive oxygen species from the mitochondria normally function as an intermediate step in the extension of lifespan caused by reduced insulin-like signaling in various species. The results implicate a species-conserved net of coordinated genes that affect the rate of senescence by modulating energetic efficiency, purine biosynthesis, apoptotic pathways, endocrine signals, and the detoxification and excretion of metabolites. …
I find this astonishing. It means Mn deficiency is arguably the most important cause of all the age-related diseases we see today.
Here’s a study linking Mn deficiency to insulin resistance.
manganese insulin resistance
I listen to Jimmy Moore’s podcasts, and he often talks about his insulin resistance being a problem. All those years of low carb and recently all the long and short fasts doesn’t seem to get rid of that insulin resistance.
Mn deficiency could be a factor. But solving it would require the counterintuitive change of adding beans or even whole grains.
Why are you still wasting your time?
Haha, I don’t listen to every single episode of LLVLC, but maybe on average every fourth episode is an interview with an interesting person. The latest one was with a psychologist, an expert on binge eating and food addiction. Interesting, and has nothing to do with keto. Before that there was an expert on GMO foods, also interesting. He even had Kevin Hall on after the infamous Nusi study. That episode certainly made me question my belief that low carb was the best way.
Robert thanks for that paper, I hadn’t seen it. Now we have evidence in a form non-scientists can understand that Mn is right at the heart of the metabolic syndrome.
I think Jimmy Moore might be a lost cause. If he has iron overload in his brain, which is likely, he may not be able to change his mind. The mental images he needs for adjusting his worldview won’t come easily. Without enough Mn in his brain, his thinking will just go round in circles, which is what it appears to be doing.
If he is taking Adam Nally’s KetoEssentials supplement, he will be getting minimal Mn and an awful lot of vitamin B12, which Nally probably thinks prevents Alzheimer’s. I have friends in the Oxford Pharmacology department who take megadose B12 to prevent Alzheimer’s. The head of department told me he’s concerned about this because B12 can be toxic in large doses. KetoEssentials has a truly enormous dose, 25,000% of the Daily Value. Gulp.
The reason for taking B12 is this. It’s needed for methylation of an enzyme called PP2A, which regulates autophagy and breaks down the protein aggregates found in Alzheimer brains.
PP2A blockade inhibits autophagy and causes intraneuronal accumulation of ubiquitinated proteins (2013)
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22892312
Using cultured cortical neurons, we show that the blockade of protein phosphatase 2A (PP2A), either pharmacologically by okadaic acid or by short hairpin RNA (shRNA)-mediated silencing of PP2A catalytic subunit, inhibited basal autophagy and autophagy induced in several experimental settings … Conversely, PP2A upregulation by PP2A catalytic subunit overexpression stimulates neuronal autophagy. … These data are important to human neurodegenerative diseases, especially Alzheimer’s disease, because they provide links for the first time between the pathological features of Alzheimer’s disease: PP2A downregulation, autophagy disruption, and protein aggregation. …
Interesting, isn’t it. Just take B12 and you will break down the junk in your brain that causes Alzheimer’s. Well guess what, the reason PP2A needs methylation is to prevent loss of its metal cofactor, and the metal cofactor is … manganese.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18394995
Jane, this means that those who are diagnosed as B12 deficient need to take manganese supplements(and Mn rich foods) instead of taking B12 supplements(and B12 rich food)?
x
Hi Mark
I am not sure that people diagnosed with B12 deficiency actually have it. If they eat meat and/or dairy, it’s difficult to understand how they could, especially considering that unlike other B vitamins, B12 is stored (in the liver) and it takes years to exhaust the stores.
What looks like B12 deficiency may actually be copper deficiency, since the enzyme in the methylation pathway requiring B12 also requires copper.
“Copper deficiency myelopathy (CDM) is an increasingly recognised mimic of subacute combined degeneration (SCD) of the cord due to cobalamin (vitamin B(12)) deficiency …”
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18472229
So yes, people diagnosed with B12 deficiency may actually need more copper and more manganese. I am doubtful about Mn and Cu supplements. I would only take them if I wanted to binge on refined carbs or meat, and then I’d take Mg as well.
Metallurgist in training……
Remember Don Matesz?
donmatesz.blogspot.com/2011/06/farewell-to-paleo.html
Farewell To “Paleo”
TUESDAY, JUNE 14, 2011
Look at this
donmatesz.blogspot.com/2017/05/farewell-to-plant-based-am-i-mad-or-what.html
Farewell to Plant-based? Am I Mad or What?
SATURDAY, MAY 6, 2017
donmatesz.blogspot.com/2017/05/vlchf-diet-for-psoriasis-experiment_15.html
VLCHF Diet for Psoriasis Experiment Week 2 Report
“I have been eating very low carbohydrate, high fat for two weeks now. My digestible (net) carbohydrate intake has been below 50 g on most days, provided by oranges, berries, onions, beets, carrots, winter squash, and greens (mostly spinach, lettuce, kale).
I’ve continued to eat 300-400 g of meat daily, mostly beef (roast, brisket, sirloin steak, ground), with some pork, chicken, and sardines. I had at least half a dozen eggs over the week. My protein intake has been in the range of 120-140 g per day. I have found my desire for protein is less than my desire for fat.
I have gotten roughly 65-70% of my calories from fats, mostly clarified butter, bacon drippings, fat naturally occurring on meats (all saved), heavy cream, coconut cream, and nuts, with some tallow, olive oil, high-oleic sunflower oil, and liquid fish oil (~1-1.5 tsp. daily). I’ve been getting around 150 g total fat in a day, with about 55 g of that from saturated fatty acids. My cholesterol intake has ranged from about 350 to 1000 mg per day, mostly depending on egg yolk intake.”
I can’t understand why Don Matesz didn’t do the obvious thing from the start and adopt a Hunza diet. Here’s what happened to McCarrison’s rats on this diet.
journeytoforever.org/farm_library/Wrench_WoH/WoH2.html#Ch3
The diet given to the rats was chapattis, or flat bread, made of wholemeal wheat flour, lightly smeared with fresh butter, sprouted pulse, fresh raw carrots and fresh raw cabbage ad libitum, unboiled whole milk, a small ration of meat with bones once a week, and an abundance of water, both for drinking and washing.
In this experiment 1,189 rats were watched from birth to the twenty-seventh month, an age in the rat which corresponds to that of about fifty-five years in man. The rats were killed and carefully examined at all ages up to the twenty-seventh month of life by naked-eye post-mortem examination.
The result was very remarkable. Disease was abolished. This astonishing consequence, however, must be given in McCarrison’s own words in the first of two lectures given at the College of Surgeons in 1931.
“During the past two and a quarter years there has been no case of illness in this ‘universe’ of albino rats, no death from natural causes in the adult stock, and, but for a few accidental deaths, no infantile mortality. Both clinically and at post-mortem examination this stock has been shown to be remarkably free from disease. It may be that some of them have cryptic disease of one kind or another, but, if so, I have failed to find either clinical or macroscopical evidence of it.”
By putting the rats on a diet similar to that of certain peoples of Northern India, the rats became “hunzarised,” that is they “enjoyed a remarkable freedom from disease,” words used by McCarrison in 1925 of the Hunza. They even went further. Except for an occasional tape worm cyst they had no visible disease at all.
Jane,
Thank you for inspiring me to try out different diets. The posts about iron on FTA helped me to realize the benefits of whole grains. And now reminding us again about Manganese.
I’ve been experimenting with Richard’s high protein combined with either fat or carbs. And now occasionally trying less protein, more whole food carbs, such as beans and whole wheat. At the same time trying to lose some fat, so tracking calories.
Saturday’s menu was interesting: skipped breakfast (as I always do), Lunch was carrots/beets/beans soup with two slices of whole grain rye bread. Dinner a big salad with one smoked mackerel, sour cream dressing, and one slice whole meal spelt bread, plus a beer.
As I logged the calories, I realized I still had 500 kcal left, and so I had two more slices of spelt bread with a little butter, cheese and jam, and finally some yogurt with a few pumpkin seeds and raw honey.
It ended up at 2100 kcal, broken down to 82 g fat (37%E), 72 g protein (14%E), and a whopping 245 g carbs (49%E).
Now, according to low carb dogma, this should have left me tired and ravenous, with low blood sugars and crazy cravings, and on the road to diabetes. But it never happened, I felt great and satisfied, despite 400-500 kcal less then weight maintenance would require.
Eating carbs in their whole food form is nothing like eating the white flours and sugars and processed foods. Low carb and Paleo condemning whole grains and beans is their biggest mistake.
Jimmy Moore has gone completely insane. Once he puts his money where his mouth is, I think I’ll follow his advice, but I heard he has gained over 70 lbs back from when he did his long-term fasting experiment last year (can’t confirm but I wouldn’t be surprised).
I see so much terrible advice on keto groups I follow on here, lifted straight from his books – people STRUGGLING to lose weight and being told to eat more calories, drink more fat, stop worrying about amount of food. These are mostly people that don’t exercise, generally live sedentary lifestyles. How on earth could that be safe advice?
The ultimate GOAL should be to eat less, and overcome food addiction. These are food ADDICTS.
Menace to the health and diet community is just about damn right.
Thank you, Richard. We really need to stand up against this.
“When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time”. – Maya Angelou
Jimmy’s first low carb book came out sometime around 2005. Inside the book and on the back cover, in addition to his weight loss journey tips, Jimmy offered up his religious beliefs along with requests for cash donations to be made out in his name. In short: “thanks for buying the book, also consider my religious beliefs too and on top of all that, please send me even more money… just because.”
touting product/begging for donations/right wing religious organizations – it’s all part of the package.
This is old news.
On the money, Frank.
I grew up, partly, in it. Laid waist to the family from the age of 10, both mom and dad at fault.
Even my grandfather’s Idaho Mormonism wasn’t 10% as bad.
“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” – Titus 1:16
The Journal of Pediatrics just published it’s prohibitions (guidelines) on giving fruit juice to children.
they are Holy Saints over there at Pediatrics.
BTW …why should snake oil salesmen stop . There is still no lack of snake oil….or those that will buy it.
Jimmy Moore is no Professor Noakes.
I grew up with Christians too. They were bullies and I dislike Christianity because of it. I don’t dislike Jesus, in fact he was my great hero when I was a child because he put his money where his mouth was. My family did not do what Jesus said. Turn the other cheek. He didn’t say that because he was a wimp, he said it because it’s the only strategy that has any chance of working against these people. The more you bash Jimmy, the stronger he gets. Unfortunate fact.
Bigger they are, harder they fall.
” The more you bash Jimmy, the stronger he gets.”
It’s not hormesis….It’s hormelesis. The more you feed him the fatter he becomes.
I was going to write that I couldnot blame some of the real experts in Ketography from surfing Jimmy’s wave. However, I remembered Taleb’s warning…”if you see fraud ..and don’t say “fraud”, then you are a fraud”.
Haha yes but if he drops dead he’s a martyr and the bullies killed him.
Robert your new diet sounds absolutely delicious. Do the low carb people really say it should make you tired and hungry? If that’s their experience it means they have endocrine malfunction. Which I think can only be due to micronutrient deficiencies. It won’t be magnesium because they take Mg pills. Must be manganese.
Jane
You are my favorite metallurgist in training…..
Are you a fan of Metallica?
It is actually delicious. I never thought I would enjoy such food coming from SAD (or SSD rather, standard Swedish diet), but you can change. Especially since starting to cultivate a better gut flora, I find my taste is changing.
Regarding low carb beliefs, officially “refined” sugar and grains are usually blamed for diabesity. But on forums and blogs whole grains are dismissed as well, it’s the same number of carbs anyway. Therefore when you “cheat”, you never go for boring whole grains, but rather candies and white flour – pizza, bread, etc.
Usually insulin resistance is blamed as the cause, it’s often called carbohydrate intolerance. You eat carbs, blood sugar goes up, insulin, sugars go way down, and you get “hangry”, and must eat again.
I think it’s correct that insulin resistance will keep you from easily tapping in to your fat tissue for energy. I was like that, when I was hungry I needed to eat at all costs. But now with hopefully better insulin resistance, hunger can usually be ignored.
The thing is, how do you reverse insulin resistance? Sure, one can just avoid carbs for the rest of one’s life, like low carbers think we should do. But as you and others have showed, this could lead to many problems.
Feeding your gut bugs is one part of it, and you have pointed out the importance of manganese. Losing weight, no matter how, seems to be key. Fasting works for many too.
Hap, no. Pink Floyd.
Robert, I think you are a vegetable. Swedes are vegetables you know. I was married to a vegetable called Karlsson.
Yes Jane, I even have a German grandmother, so I’m 75% Swede, 25% kraut ;-)
Jane…
You have good taste in music…..for a budding metallurgist. I don’t like Metallica either.
I don’t get the Swedes, frankly…..while French and German, perhaps a bit better. For centuries, perhaps even millenia the Swedes (a generally happy and prosperous folk) either avoided or repelled invasions…or just pretended to stay out of conflicts. The Swiss showed everybody else how to do it….just keep everyone’s money. A sort of inverse “hostage” crisis.
But now……the barbarians are imported….and propped up. Since when did Swedes, who play excellent hockey and just about all other sports….get so pretentious and willfully blind?
Hap,
I was once in a coffee shop in New York, and the waiter asked where I’m from. When he heard I was from Sweden, he cried out: “Sweden! What happened to you guys? Once upon a time you were the Vikings, terrorizing and invading all of Europe, and now you haven’t been to war for over 200 years! What happened!?”
I hadn’t thought about before, but it was an interesting question. And it always cracks me up to think about it, he said it in such a funny and animated way.
Pretentious and blind? I’m 34 yrs old, and for as long as I can remember Swedes have always been pretentious and blind. Maybe too much money, no wars or hardships for generations, and up until recent years a quite functioning socialism makes people blind. Clueless to how most of the other 6 billion live and think.
Here’s something to fantasize about.
The ancient Nords and Vikings rise up. Deal with the Muslim Menace properly, post videos of beheadings with proper enormous swords.
Strike true, visceral fear.
Carry on.
LOL!!! That fantasy makes me cry from laughter right now ?
How about this one…..Swedes chasing down Julian Assange and forcing him into exile on a charge of “rape” (recently dropped after years of relentless effort) but not lifting a finger to control the mass misogyny and sexual assault of Swedish women by the government imported and supported “refugee” menace.
Regarding Richards “fantasy”…..I agree. The great steel forges of Nordic countries presumably created the fearsome battle axes of warring and conquering peoples. That should do against the knife wielding Jihadi barbarians quite well.
Good heavens Robert, all four of your grandparents were vegetables. Were you bullied at school?
Richard that’s awfully primitive. Alfred the Great knew how to do it. He beat the Danes in battle to show who was boss, and then he invited them all to a party and gave them presents. They never bothered him again.
This is what the Russians are doing with the jihadis. Bomb the shit out of them and then pardon them. Of course the Americans think this is rubbish and the proper way to deal with the problem is to bomb the shit out of civilians and pretend the Russians did it.
Alfred the Great knew how to do it. He beat the Danes in battle to show who was boss, and then he invited them all to a party and gave them presents. They never bothered him again.
Ah….not exactly. After years of warring and outcomes ambiguous, Alfred finally counterattacked and starved the Danes into submission. A small but non insignificant concession was agreement to forcible conversion to Christianity. A nice “present”, perhaps explaining something.
As it turns out, seems like the Danes are the least “stupid” of the Nords.
russians bomb anyone who they deem worthy and do not handwring regarding outcome. the vacuous Obama, having drawn a non existent line in syria, handed over that country to Russia. Russia has important national interests in Syria and no special love of sunni muslims (of any stripe).
what they have all done to each other in Syria makes dropping a MOAB on barbarians in ultra rural Afghanistan…mightly insignificant.
Hey…I have a good idea, since we have a meddling instinct and few ideas…..let’s put the screws to the Israelis to make “peace” (by committing national suicide) with their Arab neighbors, who, as we all know, are just peaceful agrarians and vegetarians. that will fix everything. Call it a day. go back to spending 4 trillion of borrowed Chinese money, give VA administrators a raise, and put California on a new single payor health care plan for estimated 200 billion/yr (current California outlay 100 billion). Oh yeah…and let illegal aliens ride the bullet train back and forth from Bakersfield to Fresno for free on the 150 billion dollar tracks. Leave US 99 as is for people to drive if they wish to commit suicide.
I was wrong…..California single pay or plan now 400 B
Well you could be right. It’s many years since I read books about Alfred and I might be misremembering the bit about the party.
The principle stands though, and I’ve used it successfully myself. If you defeat someone it’s a good idea to let them think they won. Then they have no further need to fight you. And they get careless.
The Russians are playing this game too. They let everyone think they have committed war crimes in Syria. Actually they haven’t. Their accusers are getting more and more hysterical and less and less credible.
Jane
I really do not understand what game Russia is playing. They obviously have problems in their country with autocracy and long term bad governing habits and preferences. They drink too much…
there’s nothing like a stiff drink and a dictator to simplify life…..even if everything else unpleasant and unfree.
So really, the game seems like distract everyone of all their problems and give them a taste of screwing the West…especially USA. It’s easy to screw the Europeans.
I don’t know how war crimes are NOT being committed in Syria….and why wouldn’t Russians commit them if they found useful? Who is going to kick their ass about it? I am kind of not sympathetic, however, of atrocities between Muslims in the middle east. Maybe I need some remedial compassion lessons.
I’d better not find out that you are colluding with the Russians to corner the Manganese market. Presumably , they have a lot sitting around.
I don’t think the Allies were too careful to let enemies in WW’s I, II let the vanquished think they won. Actually, they were vanquished, kind of utterly. For whatever reason, we did see straight to help them “come back”, mostly because we did not want the Soviet Union to stomp in.
Hap, Russia is a very different country today. The problems they had in the Soviet Union have been reversed and it’s actually more democratic now than we are. There is corruption as there is in every country, but it tends to happen at the lower levels and not in government. I know you will find this difficult to believe. Putin is not a dictator, he is elected and he consults very widely. There are high level committees which pool their expertise and make decisions based on very extensive knowledge. Putin and the elected parliament have the final say. So it’s like our system except that the officials you see in public are highly trained in history and diplomacy while ours are embarrassingly ignorant and can only threaten and bluster. Look at Boris Johnson. How did such a man become the UK Foreign Secretary? But the others are not much better, and Donald Trump is arguably worse.
Comrade Jane
I am at a loss for words……
Our politics is certainly corrupt in many ways and we have an entrenched self realizing system at many levels. We elect persons now of dubious expertise and virtue. It is getting worse. But look at our culture and lack of respect and adherence to founding principles. We get what we deserve. Europe….same.
Russia and Putin reminds me of the Palestinian authority and its president who is in his 12th year of a 4 year term.
Jane
There are two ways to “win” a war…..you utterly destroy the enemy. Or, you pummel them into submission, entirely eliminating any will to fight.
The Romans were generally experts at this, having sown the destroyed ground of the city of Carthage with salt. for the Jews of Judea it was sufficient to kill more than a million of them , completely destroy the Temple Mount, and go after zealots at Masada who preferred suicide to Roman capture. All individuals potentially vying to redeem were killed at Beitar. Everybody else sold as slaves.
It is a bit naive to think or say that you vanquish your foes and let them think it was their idea.
What kind of Manganese deal do you have with comrade Putin? :)
Yes that’s how the Romans did it. But their empire didn’t last. People need to feel they are in control, and if you pummel them into submission they are not. The ‘will to fight’ is also the will to live and work and do what the Romans actually wanted them to do, grow food for the empire. So it’s self defeating.
How is it naive to think you can vanquish your foes and let them think it was their idea? I had many foes in the nutrition blogosphere and I have none now. All because I let them think it was their idea. I needed them to argue with me. In the end, they were not going to win, because I am a highly trained scientist with 30-odd years of full time study of the scientific literature behind me.
By avoiding conflict I have made friends of them, and they are free to change their minds towards my way of thinking if they wish, without losing face.
How long should an empire last?
Again, I point to WWII……. you might have forgotten that we had to drop to nuclear weapons on Japan to achieve an unconditional surrender. Yes, we allowed them to keep the “dignity” of their Emperor/God. But eventually , we occupied and forcefully pushed them to some sort of representative government, reasonably agreeable to us. I don’t ever think they came up with the idea that they should suffer for the good of everyone to lose a war.
Now, the Germans….please. Actually, I would have like to say Nazis……but what could they accomplish without the support of the majority of their populace? the punishment for Hitlerism was extemely severe…..but as usual we ended up in a benign enough occupation that was moderated by Soviet aggression.
Now what you say in your defense is that you “avoided conflict”…..and ultimately made “friends”. C’mon , are you saying that this is a strategy to deal with the Radical Islamic barbarians?
The Radical Islamic barbarians are actually friends of yours. They work for your government. Your taxes pay for their barbarity. They were brainwashed using techniques developed by your intelligence agencies.
Regarding Russia…..no particular friend of ours. However, I am not oblivious to the concept that there could be common or shared interests, and that they should be explored for cooperation. I did not appreciate that we came up with a stunt like a “reset” button to paper over the transfer of critical resources (uranium) from US to Russia.
What makes you think Russia is no particular friend of ours? It is actually the only friend we have. If it were not for the Russians and their remarkable restraint there’d have been nuclear holocaust by now.
Russian restraint? We are responsible for radical barbarians? You’ve been reading your Chomsky and zinn.
I bet Jews deserved the gas chambers because the are simultaneously bankers and bolsheviks.
It’s time to corner the world market for manganese
Now back to Jimmy Moore……I recently listened to Art De Vany give his STEM interview for IHMC in Florida. It really was fascinating. Frankly, I would like to enjoy an adult beverage with him , if he ever shows back up in Irvine.
Among many pearls of wisdom (and some proliferation of probably scientific bunk like Toba), he clearly stated that you have to be careful about fat, not stupidly avoiding,….just careful. And if you eat a bunch of fat…you get fat. I get the feeling that over time he has moved away from biohacking in the reductionist sense.
As it happens I know some Jewish bankers. Their bank is called Shore Capital. Howard Shore is a Zionist and a friend of David Cameron’s and was very influential in the Brexit campaign. He thinks EU regulations are holding back British life sciences. Brexit will free us from them and then we’ll cure all the world’s diseases and make a lot of money. This is of course hopelessly naive. It has become clear in the past year or so that the biotech experiment has essentially failed.
I thought David Cameron was a foe of Brexit.
I very much doubt Mr Shore stated that the only thing British Life Sciences requires for success is throwing off regulations. However, he has a point. Having been in the Life Sciences game for 40 years, I have firsthand experience. Some British initiatives are pretty good. However, mostly entrenched by bureaucracy. A freer market, with all it’s faults beats a socialist bureaucracy every time, especially when it comes to innovation.
The biotech “experiement” has not failed, but many government sponsored ones typically do. The US War on Cancer and the Obama inspired precision medicine and genome sequencing program, has substantially underperformed (OK failed), given the resources allocated.
Central planning works in medicine as well as it works in just about everything else. Central planning and wealth redistribution is the function of EU. Even if not the stated goal or purpose, that’s what it turns out to be in practice , as do all variations of socialism. IMO the Brits do not need to suck up to bureaucrats living large in Brussels.
If you know Jewish bankers then you know Jewish bolsheviks…..because they are the same.
If you happen to be a Socialist, I would recommend that despite your experience with a Swedish life partner, you go to Sweden and enjoy yourself. However, please make a stop in Venezuela.
The biotech experiment has failed because biotech cannot cure common diseases, which are the only ones that would make enough money to repay the enormous investment.
However the industry is thriving because it makes a lot of money for Wall Street.
Drug Researchers Leak Secrets to Wall St.
seattletimes.com/business/drug-researchers-leak-secrets-to-wall-st/
Doctors testing new drugs are sworn to keep their research secret until drug companies announce the final results. But elite Wall Street firms — looking to make quick profits — have found a way to harvest these secrets:
They pay doctors to divulge the details early.
A Seattle Times investigation found at least 26 cases in which doctors have leaked confidential and critical details of their ongoing drug research to Wall Street firms. ….
… “That’s a good way to go to jail,” said lawyer Thomas Newkirk, former associate director of enforcement at the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC). ….
… “Everybody does this…. It’s now common practice,” said the chief executive of California biotech company Valentis, Ben McGraw, a former Wall Street analyst. ….
Jane
You are incorrigible…..whenever confronted with an issue, the subject gets changed. Now the entire biotech enterprise failure is the result of greedy entrepeneurs, bankers, and of course doctors. I am involved in substantial pharma sponsored trials.. Thank God I have never been called to discuss the Mariners or the weather (Seattle Times). However, I would be foolish to say that none of this stuff ever happens.
But it is beside the point. The cozy relationship between pharma and Big Government produces these massive distortions. Big Pharma cannot do shit without the Government stamp of approval. Big Pharma does not lead.. It follows …….taxpayer monies…which follows central power and direction. the investor sharks go where they smell blood.
Now…..I do agree that common ailments like obesity and related diseases, AD, CHD, and cancer are losers for pharma. They can collude with the government to have things approved which seem really “scientific” and follow a certain (often bogus) rationale in order to recoup their investment and make a return. There is too much uncertainty, iatrogenics, and 2nd through 4th order effects that make early adoption of new drugs potentially harmful.
In the US…where advertising is allowed direct to consumers……it’s really only about four medical conditions. A Fib (stroke), Erectile Dysfunction, Hep C, T2D….which get money for TV. Even the statins don’t get love and BTW, your MRC just sent out recommendations for even MORE people to be on statins.
You and I know that behavioral changes may substsantially relieve these conditions. Via Negativa of Nassim Taleb…even more. No one has to buy into as many drugs as they are prescribed. I am a doctor and I told my doctor…..the absolute minimum of what is necessary is what I will take, unless I am in the ICU and it’s looking grim…then go for it.
Forgetting for a minute the possibly corrupt doctors involved in trials. The rest of the 99.9 percent of doctors are not running trials and get no offers of anything but mountains of paperwork and other record keeping to satisfy Big Data. What they get are marching orders from hospitals, insurance companies (which own them) , and most of all the US government…which is really in the drivers seat of the majority of medical decisions by all sorts of coercion, deceit, and manipulation…. The US is not far away from Britain on this one.
I liked Dr Martin for a couple of years….but I hated Martin.
the Biotech experiement has so far failed because it marches to the tune of a drummer (usually the Government with the money) that has a very hard time changing its mind in the face of facts.
In the words of a Great American…”they can’t handle the truth”.
I imagine the guy with the OJ and oatmeal took a look at Jimmy & his egg/cheese/sausage breakfast and thought “Wow, will the low carbers never learn?”
I wonder how Moore would respond to the success of the rice diet (which also includes fruit, fruit juice and even white sugar)?
nutritionfacts.org/2017/05/18/what-happened-to-the-rice-diet/
If Moore were able to tolerate the Rice diet….it might help.
However, having investigated this recently, including why Duke finally terminated the clinic and diet as well as Kempner’s protege terminating it…….
It was basically a very low calorie carbohydrate diet. For some it was almost impossible to follow without a whuppin….which is documented. Truly tough love.
Maybe it will be resurrected someday….but I hope not.
IF JM could follow just about any 600cal/day diet it would probably help….on his health journey.
The problem is not LCHF or LFHC but HFHC. Diets that are high in fat AND high in carb are recipe for disaster.
Where did you hear about the Rice Diet being very low calorie? From what I’ve read (including Denise Minger), it sounded like a moderate calorie diet where Kempner allowed a lot of white sugar to fill any calorie deficits. I don’t think it’s ideal, but you could definitely get plenty of calories with enough fruit and sugar (DurianRider’s 10 bananas+sugar smoothies would do the trick easily).
I’ve heard about Kempner’s tough love. I think Jimmy has enough detractors to find someone who will do the old-school PE coach role–including a big wooden paddle for bad boys who don’t eat enough rice (or sneak butter into the food).
drmcdougall.com/2013/12/31/walter-kempner-md-founder-of-the-rice-diet/
*Dry rice of 250 to 350 grams daily forms the basis of the diet. Any kind of rice is used as long as it contains no milk or salt. The rice is boiled or steamed in plain water or fruit juice, without salt, milk or fat. (One cup of dry white rice weighs about 200 grams, and contains about 13 grams of protein, 150 grams of carbohydrate, 1 gram of fat, and 700 calories.)
*Calorie intake is usually 2,000 to 2,400 calories daily. Intake varies based upon the patient’s condition: underweight people are fed more calories, and vice versa.
*Fruit and fruit juices are allowed.
*Dried fruits can be used as long as nothing but sugar has been added.
*White sugar may be used as desired (ad libitum); on average a patient takes in about 100 grams daily (400 calories) but, if necessary (to maintain body weight), as much as 500 grams (2000 calories) daily has been used.
*No avocados, dates, or nuts.
*No tomato or vegetable juices.
*Supplementary vitamins are added in the following amounts: vitamin A 5,000 units, vitamin D 1,000 units, thiamine chloride 5 mg, riboflavin 5 mg, niacinamide 25 mg, calcium pantothenate 2 mg. (However, none of the Rice Diet patients during five months of treatment showed any signs (epithelial, neural or metabolic) to make one suspect any vitamin deficiency.
*Adaptation to the diet takes about two months.
*Exercise is encouraged. Bed rest is only advised with severe conditions.
*Water intake is restricted in some severely ill patients to less than 1.5 liters (6 cups) a day to prevent water intoxication and electrolyte imbalances.
*A few patients with kidney disease cannot tolerate the diet because of their inability to retain minerals.
*Once the patient’s health has returned, then small amounts of non-leguminous vegetables, potatoes, lean meat or fish (all prepared without salt or fat) may be added. However, if these additions result in adverse consequences (elevated blood pressure, enlargement of the heart, abnormal EKG changes, worsening kidney or eye conditions, etc.), then the basic Rice Diet, without modification, must be continued.
*A physician competent in diet therapy should follow anyone in need of the Rice Diet. Sicker patients need closer supervision.
The nutrient breakdown is about 2,000 to 2,400 calories per day (depending on the patient’s body weight): 95% carbohydrate, 4 to 5% protein (20 to 25 grams), 2 to 3% fat (rice is relatively high in the essential fat linoleic acid), 140 milligrams of calcium, and 150 milligrams of sodium daily. For more rapid and effective weight loss, the calories are restricted.
Do you think we could get the producers of Survivor to do a series based on diet? Island Ketard versus Island protein perhaps? The real fun begins when you mix the tribes and the ketards cannot find enough fat to eat.
“Jane you are incorrigible…..whenever confronted with an issue, the subject gets changed. Now the entire biotech enterprise failure is the result of greedy entrepeneurs, bankers, and of course doctors.”
Hap you have misunderstood me. The failure is nothing to do with any of these people. If modern disease is caused by mineral deficiencies how can biotech cure it? All anyone can do is pretend I was wrong and it’s nothing to do with minerals.
My experimental research was on tissue regeneration. This is much the same thing as maintenance and repair, the process which keeps us healthy. Your body is continually breaking down old stuff and replacing it with new stuff.
When my research was finished I spent several years in the Oxford Biochemistry library reading current journals in biochemistry, physiology, genetics, immunology, molecular biology and cell biology. I found out that a surprising number of the enzymes I thought would be important in maintenance and repair were activated by manganese or copper. Then I read about the Hunza and realised they did not remove these metals from their food like we do. That was why they were so healthy, I thought, and why we were not. How could this have been missed? Only because nobody knew about maintenance and repair.
Now you can see how it all happened. Richard Dawkins was king in those days and modern disease was due to faulty genes. Therefore biotechnology and the human genome project were going to fix it.
Jane
We now are wising up about recycling, maintenance,and repair…..entrepreneurs are taking the lead, where possible. It’s unfortunate that we are extending our drug model for this…..but all is not lost. A transition to wim hof or fasting is not for everyone, so we will have things like fast mimicking diets as oxymoronic as it sounds, but still somewhat effective. We have art D and Richard N….and plenty of others to help sort wheat from chaff.
I take trace mineral supplements so I guess we “agree”… a small price to pay.
BTW…..you are a lucky woman to have the time to spend at the oxford library to be self taught. Aren’t you glad to be able to do most if not all of that now from home?
Yes I do consider myself very lucky. I am both an insider, using their libraries and going to their seminars and hearing about their unpublished work, and an outsider which means I can think what I like. I work in the Oxford Science Library where someone else fixes the computer if it crashes. Haha
Carbsane’s website is going nuts on Jimmy right now. It is very interesting and sad that he has dug himself this HFLC hole of obesity.
What is Carbsane?
http://carbsanity.blogspot.com
Most of the comments are by her longtime sycophant, Charles Grashow, though.
I also found that blog just recently from some comment here. Unbelievable, at least the posts on Jimmy Moore has nothing to do with sanity. The comments are even more crazy, full of hate.
That being said, I find it strangely difficult to stop reading those posts…
But many other posts can be more interesting
Who in the ever loving fuck even gives this guy a second thought? He was fat, bald and looked like hell 5 years ago and hes fat, bald anf looks like hell today. How can anyone think that he has anything to offer the healthsphere at all?
Meanwhile there are hundreds of high carbers, high saturated fat eaters, high sugar eaters, etc that are actually having significant success in improving their health. Plenty of vegans even doing some pretty awesome stuff.
Fuck that guy.
Jimmy Moore. Lol. I swear that guy is binge eating at night. Like seriously, I used to use keto back when I had really bad bulimia.. it just barely kept my weight in check from all the late night binge/purging episodes. I slowly got fatter though until I said fuck this one day and vowed to never puke again. Then I accepted carbs back into my life :) I do like “lower” carbs though depending on exercise 150-200 per day.
I’m playing with it now thouhg because these days it isn’t about appearance as much as it is about regaining my health… I’d love to try IFing but it seems it has its drawbacks for women and/or for those of us with any kind of adrenal distress.
Richard, I am a patron with the bitcoin gig. How is your weight loss going (and no I don’t mean your health gain journey). since your not so active on this blog, I am not sure where to post this query. I am into a 2 day cycle; day 1 water only fast, day 2 eat. Repeat. I’ve been eating nutrient dense, low to medium calorie foods like greens, beans, berries and fruits, raw nuts and sprouted seeds, with some whole grains. Now that these are my go-to foods – even if I binge on my eat day, it will be an extra 1000 calories. CICO accounting is still favouring me.
This blog is one of the few remaining bright spots in my life.
Regarding “POST #1,” I’d be willing to bet the person eating the “carbage” oatmeal and OJ probably wasn’t morbidly obese.
I can’t believe that Victory Belt (should be called “XXXL Belt”) keeps publishing this clown. FFS!
Carry on, shipmate.